Interview
A Riot over Intersectional Feminism: An interview with Eleanor C. Whitney
by Amanda Smera, Ellen Lewis, and Farah Bakri
March 2022
Activist and editor Eleanor C. Whitney, author of Riot Woman: Using Feminist Values to Destroy the Patriarchy gives insight into her new memoir to shed light on feminism and its ever-growing community in the new media age. Born in Maine and currently Brooklyn-based, Whitney has previously published two self-help workbooks which allow readers to reflect on their lives and progress successfully. Whitney’s dedication to intersectional feminism allows readers to understand how to make real change within equality movements. In this interview, Whitney shares her advice on ways for people to educate themselves to fight for justice in regards to social equality and the way mainstream media impacts the feminism movement. She also discusses setting goals and ways she stays organized and empowered.
Glassworks Magazine (GM): You seem to have always been a goal-oriented activist in your personal life. However, your first book and the accompanying workbook were more along the line of business guides. What made you shift to writing more about your experiences in your feminist journey in your newest book, Riot Woman: Using Feminist Values to Destroy the Patriarchy?
Eleanor C. Whitney (ECW): Both Riot Woman and Quit Your Day Job came out of my experience coming of age in the feminist, punk, and do-it-yourself (DIY) communities. I wrote both with the intention of bringing together my personal, academic, and professional experiences and DIY values to enable readers to think about where they could find power in their own lives while acknowledging that systemic oppression is also a factor we all must negotiate from our specific identities.
I began Quit Your Day Job while I was working as an arts administrator and programmer and finishing my Master’s in Public Administration. It was my way to bring that knowledge to those who may not have the opportunity to learn about the “business” of the cultural industry in the way I had. It was my opportunity to learn what it took to write a book!
Personal essays have always been my favorite mode in which to work. Through my zines and classes in college, I always wrote very personal essays informed by feminist and anti-racist theory, and Riot Woman was a chance to build on this body of work while honing my craft as an essayist. It was also a chance for me to think critically about the impact of punk and Riot Grrrl on my life and talk back to mainstream, white, neoliberal feminism. I began Riot Woman because I had enough perspective and distance from events in my teens and twenties to think about them critically and wanted to be part of the larger, contemporary feminist cultural conversation.
Eleanor C. Whitney (ECW): Both Riot Woman and Quit Your Day Job came out of my experience coming of age in the feminist, punk, and do-it-yourself (DIY) communities. I wrote both with the intention of bringing together my personal, academic, and professional experiences and DIY values to enable readers to think about where they could find power in their own lives while acknowledging that systemic oppression is also a factor we all must negotiate from our specific identities.
I began Quit Your Day Job while I was working as an arts administrator and programmer and finishing my Master’s in Public Administration. It was my way to bring that knowledge to those who may not have the opportunity to learn about the “business” of the cultural industry in the way I had. It was my opportunity to learn what it took to write a book!
Personal essays have always been my favorite mode in which to work. Through my zines and classes in college, I always wrote very personal essays informed by feminist and anti-racist theory, and Riot Woman was a chance to build on this body of work while honing my craft as an essayist. It was also a chance for me to think critically about the impact of punk and Riot Grrrl on my life and talk back to mainstream, white, neoliberal feminism. I began Riot Woman because I had enough perspective and distance from events in my teens and twenties to think about them critically and wanted to be part of the larger, contemporary feminist cultural conversation.
GM: In a previous podcast interview with Caitlin Matanle, you said that you created your first book, Quit Your Day Job, with creative people and people with marginalized voices in mind. Is your target audience for Riot Woman the same or are there other people you had in mind when you wrote this new book? Who is this book for?
ECW: This is always such an important question when we are writing! In many ways, I know that I write for myself and write books that I want to read or a younger version of myself needed to read. When you are marketing a book, of course, you have to think very carefully about the demographic of people who will be potential customers of your book, but I think this is a little different than who this book is for. Very narrowly, it’s for people who were involved in the punk, Riot Grrrl, and zine movements, especially in the 1990s and early 2000s, who are thinking about the impact those communities had on their adult lives. More broadly, it’s for anyone who is thinking about how they hold on to their values and ideals as they grow up and learn more about the world and themselves, and how to continue a lasting, meaningful commitment to social justice and equity while allowing ourselves to grow and change.
GM: In the Riot Woman chapter “Our Bodies Are Not Ourselves,” you talk about how capitalism corrupted the “body positive” fashion industry, specifically bringing awareness to the countless accusations against fast-fashion companies using slave labor to manufacture their pieces. This includes women that seem to be erased and ignored by the mainstream media and even the feminist movement. Besides the obvious of not buying from these companies, how do you think we can take a stand for these neglected women?
ECW: This is a great question and speaks to some of the central questions of Riot Woman and in my life general: How do we enact meaningful change within global, white supremacist, capitalist, patriarchy? How do we push against interconnected systems of power and fight for real change, while knowing we can never really be outside these systems? For me, this means the feminism we practice must be intersectional and must fight for workers’ rights in the US and abroad. I don’t want to be prescriptive in terms of what that fight for justice can look like, but for me, it has meant not treating different struggles within the feminist movement as isolated. For example, the fat liberation movement, the movement for rights and better working conditions for garment workers, and the struggle against climate change are not disconnected from each other. If anything, the recent breakdown in the global supply chain and climate crisis has exposed just how interconnected issues like these are and how vital it is to take an intersectional approach to address them. As a white feminist living in the West/global North, I also challenge myself to learn about the activism and leadership and needs as articulated by the communities who are most impacted and ask how I can support that leadership from my privileged position.
ECW: This is always such an important question when we are writing! In many ways, I know that I write for myself and write books that I want to read or a younger version of myself needed to read. When you are marketing a book, of course, you have to think very carefully about the demographic of people who will be potential customers of your book, but I think this is a little different than who this book is for. Very narrowly, it’s for people who were involved in the punk, Riot Grrrl, and zine movements, especially in the 1990s and early 2000s, who are thinking about the impact those communities had on their adult lives. More broadly, it’s for anyone who is thinking about how they hold on to their values and ideals as they grow up and learn more about the world and themselves, and how to continue a lasting, meaningful commitment to social justice and equity while allowing ourselves to grow and change.
GM: In the Riot Woman chapter “Our Bodies Are Not Ourselves,” you talk about how capitalism corrupted the “body positive” fashion industry, specifically bringing awareness to the countless accusations against fast-fashion companies using slave labor to manufacture their pieces. This includes women that seem to be erased and ignored by the mainstream media and even the feminist movement. Besides the obvious of not buying from these companies, how do you think we can take a stand for these neglected women?
ECW: This is a great question and speaks to some of the central questions of Riot Woman and in my life general: How do we enact meaningful change within global, white supremacist, capitalist, patriarchy? How do we push against interconnected systems of power and fight for real change, while knowing we can never really be outside these systems? For me, this means the feminism we practice must be intersectional and must fight for workers’ rights in the US and abroad. I don’t want to be prescriptive in terms of what that fight for justice can look like, but for me, it has meant not treating different struggles within the feminist movement as isolated. For example, the fat liberation movement, the movement for rights and better working conditions for garment workers, and the struggle against climate change are not disconnected from each other. If anything, the recent breakdown in the global supply chain and climate crisis has exposed just how interconnected issues like these are and how vital it is to take an intersectional approach to address them. As a white feminist living in the West/global North, I also challenge myself to learn about the activism and leadership and needs as articulated by the communities who are most impacted and ask how I can support that leadership from my privileged position.
"I don’t want to be prescriptive in terms of what that fight for justice can look like, but for me, it has meant not treating different struggles within the feminist movement as isolated"
GM: You write a lot about fighting white supremacy and its intersection with the feminist movement. However, there are still bridges to cross when it comes to racism and white-only feminism. With the #BlackLivesMatter movement growth in 2020, this need for change became more tangible and vocal. Do you think feminists as a whole are now heading in the right direction to be more inclusive with their activism?
ECW: It’s difficult, if not impossible, to talk about “feminists as a whole” because there are so many manifestations of feminism and many feminists focused on a range of critical issues in a wide swath of communities. I think that white women have a lot of critical thinking, honest self-reflection, and work to do. I’m hopeful now that there are so many tools available for white women to educate themselves about how they have benefitted and continue to benefit from white supremacy without constantly asking BIPOC women to do the emotional labor of educating us. I’m hoping this moment will lead to more white women dropping their white savior complex and becoming more committed to liberation and equity for all, and not constantly centering ourselves and our needs within feminist movements, but somedays I’m more hopeful than others.
I often think of Hazel V Carby’s essay “White woman listen!” first published in 1982, when she states, “Black women do not want to be grafted onto 'feminism' in a tokenistic manner as colorful diversions to 'real' problems. Feminism has to be transformed if it is to address us…In other words, of white feminists, we must ask, what exactly do you mean when you say 'WE'??” These words from almost forty years ago (my lifetime!) still ring true today.
ECW: It’s difficult, if not impossible, to talk about “feminists as a whole” because there are so many manifestations of feminism and many feminists focused on a range of critical issues in a wide swath of communities. I think that white women have a lot of critical thinking, honest self-reflection, and work to do. I’m hopeful now that there are so many tools available for white women to educate themselves about how they have benefitted and continue to benefit from white supremacy without constantly asking BIPOC women to do the emotional labor of educating us. I’m hoping this moment will lead to more white women dropping their white savior complex and becoming more committed to liberation and equity for all, and not constantly centering ourselves and our needs within feminist movements, but somedays I’m more hopeful than others.
I often think of Hazel V Carby’s essay “White woman listen!” first published in 1982, when she states, “Black women do not want to be grafted onto 'feminism' in a tokenistic manner as colorful diversions to 'real' problems. Feminism has to be transformed if it is to address us…In other words, of white feminists, we must ask, what exactly do you mean when you say 'WE'??” These words from almost forty years ago (my lifetime!) still ring true today.
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GM: In the podcast with Caitlin Matanle mentioned previously, you said you love making lists because they create a manifestation of one’s desires. Did you make lists for yourself when creating your newest book, and if so, could you give us a glimpse of something we would have found on one of your lists?
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ECW: Lists are so revealing. They can be poems, diaries, a record of projects and priorities that have since been abandoned, the start of an essay. I wrote Riot Woman over seven years and I made many lists to help coax the book out of my head and onto the page. I wrote lists as I tried to define the specific audience for the book, and other lists to help me hone in on my “elevator pitch” for the book. This fall I have written many lists to help me stay on top of the minutiae I needed to pay attention to promote the book. One of those lists from late August looks like this:
Write newsletter to send Tuesday
Plan out week of launch Instagram posts
Email Queens College listserv
Reach out to Catherine about podcast
Mail book to Nicole
White beans, chickpeas, pasta, kale or broccoli
Send Sam at Room of One’s Own author stuff
3rd band for the book party on the 10th
Pay credit card
Homework for Bri
Also, writers in the book promotion hustle cycle need to remember to take time to eat.
GM: In Riot Woman, you talk a lot about zines and how they provide a platform for feminism to be discussed. Can you tell us about your experience working with Microcosm Publishing, a company focused on giving voice to minorities and the feminist movement?
ECW: So much of both writing and activism is building meaningful connections and nurturing community. When I started publishing zines as an outlet for my writing and to explore my identity and grow as a feminist in the late 1990s, I didn’t know I’d be profoundly impacting the direction of my life by meeting people I’d still be friends with and work with creatively over twenty years later.
What I’ve learned from working with Microcosm, and taking on other creative and activist projects over the years, is that there has to be space to grow within a relationship as an artist and a person, and a willingness to have difficult, and sometimes uncomfortable conversations. You also have to make sure that as you grow and change that your values are still aligned. I’m grateful to everyone who supports small and independent presses like Microcosm because they truly are doing the work to publish authors and discuss subjects that are often overlooked or treated very narrowly by mainstream publishing houses.
GM: In the chapter “Our Bodies Are Not Ourselves,” you talk a lot about the diet culture within the growing social media movement promoting “wellness” for a younger generation. It is dangerously appealing to fall for these traps, and the prevalence of eating disorders in America is an alarming consequence of the imposition of this culture. Is there a healthy, non-toxic way to exist in social media nowadays?
ECW: The toxicity of social media, and the fact that it was designed to be so in order to better monopolize our attention to sell products, has never been more clear, especially with the revelations shared by Frances Haugen, the former Facebook employee turned whistleblower. I worked in corporate marketing as a day job, so I understand that social media is often a necessary evil, especially for those of us trying to share our writing with the world.
At its best, social media can be a place to stay connected to the communities we are a part of and a vehicle to connect with people beyond our immediate circles. I try to bring a mindful approach to my social media use: What is my goal for this specific platform? How do I feel when I’m using it? Am I honestly looking to connect, learn, or be inspired, or am I just scrolling mindlessly? Is what I’m sharing adding to the conversations I want to be a part of?
I think if we pause and ask ourselves why we are using, and looking at, social media and what it brings, and what we want it to bring, to our lives, we can develop a less toxic relationship with it. When I used to work helping artists organize the business side of their practice, I always reminded them they did not have to be on every single platform—just the one or two that worked for them and enabled them to feel like they connected most authentically with their community. Also, I set time limits for social media, try to keep my phone out of reach, and avoid scrolling first thing in the morning.
Write newsletter to send Tuesday
Plan out week of launch Instagram posts
Email Queens College listserv
Reach out to Catherine about podcast
Mail book to Nicole
White beans, chickpeas, pasta, kale or broccoli
Send Sam at Room of One’s Own author stuff
3rd band for the book party on the 10th
Pay credit card
Homework for Bri
Also, writers in the book promotion hustle cycle need to remember to take time to eat.
GM: In Riot Woman, you talk a lot about zines and how they provide a platform for feminism to be discussed. Can you tell us about your experience working with Microcosm Publishing, a company focused on giving voice to minorities and the feminist movement?
ECW: So much of both writing and activism is building meaningful connections and nurturing community. When I started publishing zines as an outlet for my writing and to explore my identity and grow as a feminist in the late 1990s, I didn’t know I’d be profoundly impacting the direction of my life by meeting people I’d still be friends with and work with creatively over twenty years later.
What I’ve learned from working with Microcosm, and taking on other creative and activist projects over the years, is that there has to be space to grow within a relationship as an artist and a person, and a willingness to have difficult, and sometimes uncomfortable conversations. You also have to make sure that as you grow and change that your values are still aligned. I’m grateful to everyone who supports small and independent presses like Microcosm because they truly are doing the work to publish authors and discuss subjects that are often overlooked or treated very narrowly by mainstream publishing houses.
GM: In the chapter “Our Bodies Are Not Ourselves,” you talk a lot about the diet culture within the growing social media movement promoting “wellness” for a younger generation. It is dangerously appealing to fall for these traps, and the prevalence of eating disorders in America is an alarming consequence of the imposition of this culture. Is there a healthy, non-toxic way to exist in social media nowadays?
ECW: The toxicity of social media, and the fact that it was designed to be so in order to better monopolize our attention to sell products, has never been more clear, especially with the revelations shared by Frances Haugen, the former Facebook employee turned whistleblower. I worked in corporate marketing as a day job, so I understand that social media is often a necessary evil, especially for those of us trying to share our writing with the world.
At its best, social media can be a place to stay connected to the communities we are a part of and a vehicle to connect with people beyond our immediate circles. I try to bring a mindful approach to my social media use: What is my goal for this specific platform? How do I feel when I’m using it? Am I honestly looking to connect, learn, or be inspired, or am I just scrolling mindlessly? Is what I’m sharing adding to the conversations I want to be a part of?
I think if we pause and ask ourselves why we are using, and looking at, social media and what it brings, and what we want it to bring, to our lives, we can develop a less toxic relationship with it. When I used to work helping artists organize the business side of their practice, I always reminded them they did not have to be on every single platform—just the one or two that worked for them and enabled them to feel like they connected most authentically with their community. Also, I set time limits for social media, try to keep my phone out of reach, and avoid scrolling first thing in the morning.
"It may seem cliché, but I think being in community spaces; connecting with people is very powerful and a great antidote to the often vapid echo chamber of online activism."
GM: You mention often in Riot Woman the importance of bringing activism to offline life, with the growing spread of social media and the so-called influencers setting examples that activism can be “done” by just sharing posts to their stories (sometimes without even adding an emoji to it). How do you think we can encourage young people to take a stand within the movement and not just keep being shallow, online activists?
ECW: My particular ax to grind isn’t just with the use of social media, but the shallow performativity it invites. On social media we are often spending time giving our attention to corporate platforms when we could be in our communities or connecting more meaningfully with our allies. What if for every social media post about a cause we clicked “like” or reshared we took an action, like making a donation, signing up to volunteer, reading an in-depth article, having a conversation, or finding out how to support that cause locally? How could that bring more depth and personal connection to online activism? How does that invite us to think differently about our time and energy?
It may seem cliché, but I think being in community spaces; connecting with people is very powerful and a great antidote to the often vapid echo chamber of online activism. And of course these days those spaces can, and often must, be virtual. Raising awareness is important, but I think that you can’t learn about the depth of complicated issues from social media posts alone. As a teenager I benefited heavily from media literacy education, as well as peer-to-peer training around important social issues, like intimate partner violence. I think making space to talk with a small group of people about specific social issues, using something like a book, article, or documentary film as a way to spark conversation. Heck, you could even unpack a meme! Working with a skilled facilitator for these conversations, if you have the opportunity, is a great way to learn and grow and can lead to more thoughtful community action. That said, access to those kinds of spaces and time can feel limited these days. But activists have a long history of study groups, so we’re in good company to read and discuss and talk about how to take action together.
I think overall I want us to slow down and find ways to connect with each other and ourselves, not as a way to feel good or gloss over serious social fissures, but to create a more sustainable way to cultivate radical, lasting change.
ECW: My particular ax to grind isn’t just with the use of social media, but the shallow performativity it invites. On social media we are often spending time giving our attention to corporate platforms when we could be in our communities or connecting more meaningfully with our allies. What if for every social media post about a cause we clicked “like” or reshared we took an action, like making a donation, signing up to volunteer, reading an in-depth article, having a conversation, or finding out how to support that cause locally? How could that bring more depth and personal connection to online activism? How does that invite us to think differently about our time and energy?
It may seem cliché, but I think being in community spaces; connecting with people is very powerful and a great antidote to the often vapid echo chamber of online activism. And of course these days those spaces can, and often must, be virtual. Raising awareness is important, but I think that you can’t learn about the depth of complicated issues from social media posts alone. As a teenager I benefited heavily from media literacy education, as well as peer-to-peer training around important social issues, like intimate partner violence. I think making space to talk with a small group of people about specific social issues, using something like a book, article, or documentary film as a way to spark conversation. Heck, you could even unpack a meme! Working with a skilled facilitator for these conversations, if you have the opportunity, is a great way to learn and grow and can lead to more thoughtful community action. That said, access to those kinds of spaces and time can feel limited these days. But activists have a long history of study groups, so we’re in good company to read and discuss and talk about how to take action together.
I think overall I want us to slow down and find ways to connect with each other and ourselves, not as a way to feel good or gloss over serious social fissures, but to create a more sustainable way to cultivate radical, lasting change.
Read Nonfiction Editor Amanda Smera's Review of Riot Woman
Follow Whitney on Instagram: @killerfemme
Find out more about Whitney on her website: https://eleanorcwhitney.com
Follow Whitney on Instagram: @killerfemme
Find out more about Whitney on her website: https://eleanorcwhitney.com
